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Safety Copper Safety

momofthegoons

momofthegoons

Vapor Accessory Addict
Staff member
After the recent discussion regarding the FMJ (made by Simrell) and making DIY copper sleeves for the DV, I thought I'd do a little reading about it all. My original intent was to see if others were pleased with it's performance. But the web is always a rabbit hole and I stumbled upon a few things that had me scratching my head and looking further.

Since folks wanted to DIY... I looked at this thread first. While no one seemed particularly concerned in the thread, I was a bit concerned about the image in the first post...

wuamvv4ffn391.jpg


The copper 'sleeve' has oxidized. As has the FMJ that I found in this thread.

0qxab0ey9u291.jpg


This is alarming to me. Inhaling copper oxide nanoparticles can be toxic.


My first search found this article....I have asked the authors for the full article. But this sentence stood out to me:

CuO nanoparticles were most potent regarding cytotoxicity and DNA damage.
Click to expand...

A Google search of 'is inhaling copper oxide toxic?' brought up this sheet written by "an international group of experts on behalf of ILO and WHO." Note this portion:

Effects of short-term exposure
The substance is irritating to the eyes and respiratory tract. Inhalation of fumes may cause metal fume fever. Ingestion could cause effects on the kidneys and liver. The effects may be delayed.
Click to expand...

Headache, cough, sweating, nausea and fever may be caused by freshly formed fumes or dust of copper oxide.
Click to expand...

So the question becomes... are there nanoparticles of copper oxide going into the air path of the DV when you heat the copper sleeve to the point that it oxidizes like this. Something to think about.
 
momofthegoons said:
After the recent discussion regarding the FMJ (made by Simrell) and making DIY copper sleeves for the DV, I thought I'd do a little reading about it all. My original intent was to see if others were pleased with it's performance. But the web is always a rabbit hole and I stumbled upon a few things that had me scratching my head and looking further.

Since folks wanted to DIY... I looked at this thread first. While no one seemed particularly concerned in the thread, I was a bit concerned about the image in the first post...

View attachment 37441

The copper 'sleeve' has oxidized. As has the FMJ that I found in this thread.

View attachment 37442

This is alarming to me. Inhaling copper oxide nanoparticles can be toxic.


My first search found this article....I have asked the authors for the full article. But this sentence stood out to me:



A Google search of 'is inhaling copper oxide toxic?' brought up this sheet written by "an international group of experts on behalf of ILO and WHO." Note this portion:





So the question becomes... are there nanoparticles of copper oxide going into the air path of the DV when you heat the copper sleeve to the point that it oxidizes like this. Something to think about.
Click to expand...
Thank you for this @momofthegoons
I usually check safety concerns first before performance
I got distracted by silly deabtes people had and the fact that simrell sells them and everyone seems to love simrell

I will most definitely be giving this mod a miss

Once again as I often mentioned - this vape world/space is a lot less about stoners, peace love n mungbeans and health
The hippyesque essence ppl have with weed is no longer

It's all about money, business and taking ppl for as much as they possibly can

IF your research is correct (I will say that it is probably more correct than the ppl selling copper sleeves) - I think it is both disgusting and irresponsible of anyone making and selling things without prior research themselves
In the very least they should have a disclaimer on their sites warning of possible health issues
Point 1 - 990% profit (probs more if buying copper pipe in bulk) is disgusting and rorting the community
2 - if this potentially makes ppl sick whilst being greedy for profit then it is extra disgusting and also leaves them open to being sued imo
Class action if enough ppl got sick
Simrell wanna hope the engraved S is a special hex to prevent illness if this is the case

This is going to be another big setback on the realm of trying to give weed vaping a good name if we end up with multiple ppl getting ill from a mod sold and not properly researched and tested prior
We already have issues as a result of the black market vit E carts and the E cigs making ppl sick

I also should have cottoned on to what you have raised motg because I am aware that here we shouldn't use hot water tap for drinking in old houses as the copper can corrode over time and make you sick
It's better to boil water from the cold tap - this was mentioned since I was a kid and isn't as prevalent with modern building technologies

Appreciate the post
I will stick to my wand and two heat cycles
Works fine and is safe


EDIT
I also didn't get this notification, I randomly found elsewhere
I miss sooo many motg
Did your tech guy have any information?
 
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There will always be those who nay say the issues or say they aren't worried. But my feeling is that the burden of proof that it is safe is on the manufacturer. And there is nothing that I have found that gives me the warm and fuzzies about using copper like this.

Another concern of mine is that folks in one of those threads were talking about cleaning the copper oxidation off by sanding it. That would release oxide nanoparticle dust which could easily be inhaled while cleaning.
 
momofthegoons said:
There will always be those who nay say the issues or say they aren't worried. But my feeling is that the burden of proof that it is safe is on the manufacturer. And there is nothing that I have found that gives me the warm and fuzzies about using copper like this.

Another concern of mine is that folks in one of those threads were talking about cleaning the copper oxidation off by sanding it. That would release oxide nanoparticle dust which could easily be inhaled while cleaning.
Click to expand...
Yea there is nothing safe about this as far as I can see
You have provided enough evidence there that says otherwise
Plus my prior knowledge of drinking from hot taps as a kid

The onus is completely on the seller and they should be proving that their product is safe

I am concerned about the reputation of vapes if this becomes an issue
Sanding, making both dust and scratching the metal is going to make things worse as you say
Also why? To fool their brains because it looks shiny? Lol if it's going bad one time it will again - looks are not my concern, as with dv the pertina is just indication of a well loved unit

Again thank you for this post and I hope more get onto it before there are any issues
Why vape if you gonna inhale poisons - just go back to smoking
 
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@Kellya86 asked if all copper oxidizes in the Anvil thread. So I've been doing some Google searching and the answer is yes if the conditions are right and it isn't coated. Here is some additional information:

COPPER OXIDATION​

Copper and materials made of copper alloy oxidize when exposed to the atmosphere, causing its shiny surface to tarnish. You know that any water can induce corrosion, but here are factors that can make corrosion happen even more quickly:

  • Saltwater
  • Heat
  • Acidic compounds
After several years (depending on the environment), the tarnish gradually changes to a dark brown or black color before finally turning into a distinctive blue-green. The patina coating is what gives the Statue of Liberty its trademark appearance. And it’s why corrosion isn’t always a bad thing after all.

Copper corrodes at insignificant rates when used in areas with unpolluted air, non-oxidizing acids, and water. However, it happens more rapidly with the presence of road salt, ammonia, sulfur, oxidizing acids, etc.
Click to expand...

You'll notice the second thing they list that can make copper oxidize is heat.

I noticed in this reddit thread, where they are talking about cleaning the FMJ, they not only talk about using sand paper to sand the oxidation off. The member also mentions using vinegar and salt. Both are corrosive and vinegar can also cause oxidation.
 
momofthegoons said:
@Kellya86 asked if all copper oxidizes in the Anvil thread. So I've been doing some Google searching and the answer is yes if the conditions are right and it isn't coated. Here is some additional information:



You'll notice the second thing they list that can make copper oxidize is heat.

I noticed in this reddit thread, where they are talking about cleaning the FMJ, they not only talk about using sand paper to sand the oxidation off. The member also mentions using vinegar and salt. Both are corrosive and vinegar can also cause oxidation.
Click to expand...
Lol
Smart dumb people......
 
I want to add that vinegar and salt are recommended for cleaning copper in this article. Which sort of boggles my mind since vinegar can cause oxidation.... :thinker: So I'm not really sure about cleaning the FMJ using it. I guess I would err on the side of caution. And it would depend on if you are scrubbing or just rinsing to clean I suppose.
 
momofthegoons said:
I want to add that vinegar and salt are recommended for cleaning copper in this article. Which sort of boggles my mind since vinegar can cause oxidation.... :thinker: So I'm not really sure about cleaning the FMJ using it. I guess I would err on the side of caution. And it would depend on if you are scrubbing or just rinsing to clean I suppose.
Click to expand...
I'd assume that article is not thinking about the safety concerns of inhaling anything though

If it works to make it shiny in regards to cleaning it doesn't matter about the particles
The salt and vinegar corrosiveness may clean the muck off but won't prevenyit going bad again
Its only asthetics if not heating it and breathing it in

I also think shiny or not, in regards to the sleeves and vapes
Aggressive heating with butane will create the particles we don't want to breathe I reckon
 
felvapes said:
Aggressive heating with butane will create the particles we don't want to breathe I reckon
Click to expand...

Dont ruin vapcaps for me please...
I always had a feeling dv isnt the healthiest vape...
But i also think titanium is pretty safe and even when heated, should still be non toxic..

I feel like thr evo has gotta be up there for healthy vaping right ?
Going off topic.. one for another thread..
 
Kellya86 said:
Dont ruin vapcaps for me please...
I always had a feeling dv isnt the healthiest vape...
But i also think titanium is pretty safe and even when heated, should still be non toxic..

I feel like thr evo has gotta be up there for healthy vaping right ?
Going off topic.. one for another thread..
Click to expand...
I think dv should be as safe as any nail
I prefer IH over butane tho
Ss/Ti shouldn't be offgassing and as long as you don't go to combustion you shouldn't be over heating the silicone which is safe to cook on
(Another though for the fmj if you over heat the O rings at all with extra heat time etc)

The rest maybe another thread as you say
But this was what Randy's teardowns were always brilliant for

Then customers could make informed decisions
 
bulllee said:
Is vaping harm free :thinker: ? Or is that another thread ?
Click to expand...
If there is no contamination the weed oil is able to be absorbed by the body, even through the lungs

But without the need for "devils advocate"
Don't we want to inhale the least toxins possible?
That's the thread here and the concerns in vape construction
Otherwise it's "well that bit isn't perfect so let's not care at all" - which is what these greedy vape makers want us to think
If that's the thought process we may as well save money and smoke

Maybe another thread if really want to open that discussion
 
FWIW

Human exposure​

In the US, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has designated a permissible exposure limit (PEL) for copper dust and fumes in the workplace as a time-weighted average (TWA) of 1 mg/m3.[191] The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) has set a recommended exposure limit (REL) of 1 mg/m3, time-weighted average. The IDLH (immediately dangerous to life and health) value is 100 mg/m3.[192]

Copper is a constituent of tobacco smoke.[193][194] The tobacco plant readily absorbs and accumulates heavy metals, such as copper from the surrounding soil into its leaves. These are readily absorbed into the user's body following smoke inhalation.[195] The health implications are not clear.[196]
Click to expand...
 
momofthegoons said:
That would be a subject for another thread. Unless they're made of copper. :smile:
Click to expand...

I really did not mean to post that
Wrote it before I got near the end and read your post about keeping it copper
Typically I write as I scan the thread
Think I sent it when I put the tablet down
Not the first time

My coils are stainless so I'm not too worried
 
Tincandtoke said:
I really did not mean to post that
Wrote it before I got near the end and read your post about keeping it copper
Typically I write as I scan the thread
Think I sent it when I put the tablet down
Not the first time

My coils are stainless so I'm not too worried
Click to expand...
Copper coils would be bad
I don't like exposed coils at all
 
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