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Meds Cannabis vs Prescription Drugs


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Big Pharma needs to watch out. More and more people are starting to realize that the side effects of the pills they are taking aren’t worth the ‘relief’ they get. And that that pharmaceutical ‘relief’ comes with a price and that price is often more pharmaceutical drugs.

In the U.S. there is an epidemic of narcotic abuse and overdoses account for approximately 44 deaths per day. Many of these people started with prescription pain killers (whether prescribed or not) and then turned to heroin as a cheaper alternative. Or because they could no longer obtain the prescription narcotics.

More and more people are turning to cannabis as an alternative. I can count myself as one of them. I am in chronic pain, yet very rarely use any form of prescription medication for it. I choose, instead, to micro-dose all day with cannabis or cannabis products for my pain. And why? Because of the side effects of the damn narcotics…..

“Sedation, dizziness, nausea, vomiting, constipation, physical dependence, tolerance, and respiratory depression. Physical dependence and addiction are clinical concerns that may prevent proper prescribing and in turn inadequate pain management. Less common side effects may include delayed gastric emptying, hyperalgesia, immunologic and hormonal dysfunction, muscle rigidity, and myoclonus.”

And this is just one medicine. I am lucky in that I am on no prescription meds other than occasional pain meds and an over the counter Prilosec daily. But there are those on myriads of medications daily and I cannot imagine the side effects they go through; much less the long term effects that those drugs will have on their bodies and minds.

I’ve also had an awful experience trying to get off of prescribed medications. Besides having to kick pain meds multiple times after surgery; one medication I was prescribed and that springs readily to mind is Effexor. Effexor (Venlafaxine) is an antidepressant of the serotonin-norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor (SNRI) class. This means it increases the concentrations of the neurotransmitters serotonin and norepinephrine in the body and the brain. It is the sixth most prescribed anti-depressant. And while it’s most commonly prescribed for depression I received it for, of all things, hot flashes. I was on a relatively low dose; 75 mg. daily. After taking it for a little over a year, I decided I didn’t really want to take it any more. Thankfully, I had heard you needed to wean off of it. I was reduced to 35 mg. daily for a month, then took 35 mg. every other day for a couple weeks before I decided to say screw this and completely quit. Big mistake. I have to say that this was the worst thing I’ve ever had to kick. Not only was I physically ill, my emotional state was unstable for two weeks. I would find myself crying for no reason at all. At that low of a dosage….. I can’t imagine what people who are prescribed dosages that are higher go through. And God forbid they just stop taking it! One little pill.

When I re-upped my medical marijuana certification last time, I asked the doctor if he was beginning to see more acceptance among his peers of the medicinal benefits of cannabis. He looked over his glasses at me and said, ‘No. In fact I would recommend that you do not discuss this with your primary or, especially, your pain management doctors.” He alluded that my pain management doctor would probably cut off all prescriptions of any type of pain medication if he found out that I was a mmi patient. I was somewhat shocked at this. With all of the testimonials, research and even the American Cancer Society coming out with positive statements about the benefits of marijuana….. how could this be? Was it the old perception of it being a gateway drug? It seemed to me that many of the pills we are prescribed would fall into that category more easily.

Recently, a local Detroit, ex-television anchor with MS went public with her usage of medical cannabis and took on a leadership role in MILegalize in an effort to help legalize marijuana in Michigan. It was an eye opener when she lined up her med containers on the podium and stated that she had been able to stop taking them because of her cannabis usage and that cannabis relieved her MS symptoms. These were meds she had relied on that included Adderall, anti-nausea drugs, muscle relaxants and sleeping pills.


When I started this forum, one of the things that was important to me was to lend support and spread knowledge of how the green miracle that is cannabis can alleviate so many symptoms and can replace so many Pharma medications. We need to educate our doctors, but more importantly, we need to get the word out to people who have been prescribed all of these medicines that, imo, are at times poisoning us, causing addiction, and creating the need for additional medications to counter the side effects. We need to spread the word that there is a more natural alternative. And that alternative is cannabis.

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And while it’s most commonly prescribed for depression I received it for, of all things, hot flashes
WTF? Venlafaxine causes hyperhydrosis, or drastically increased sweating and is among the more poorly tolerated anti-depressants out there! Why on earth would they think that you need that to go with your hot flashes?

I have to say, there is a very limited amount of pharma that I use in my day to day (one medication which I will not identify). Cannabis derivatives can't compete with aforementioned pharma medication that I still use. I have a number of neurological conditions and require medication to function.

However, there's an even longer list of pharma that I abandoned for cannabis long ago. For sleep, there were various benzodiazepenes (valium, xanax etc) and seroquel (which is actually an atypical antipsychotic that happens to be able to tranquilize a small elephant by my estimation) for depression (a few different SSRI's before I realized that they made shit much worse for me and offered no relief). I've never used anti-depressants, anxiety medications, or sleep medications since. I have a great big container full of assorted pills that has gathered dust for years now :biggrin: :chill: :weed:
Pix to follow, but prescription drugs is what got me into MMJ. 6 years ago I was gobbling pain meds like a pill-powered machine. 5 years ago I lost 75 lbs in 6 weeks. After the final few days in the ER proved 'grossly unremarkable' I was advised to stop taking pain and arthritis medications and things would get better. And thats when our VA sent me to a pain clinic, via an Operational Stress Incident' clinic, which started a few years of psychiatric meds in the mix. 13 different ones over 2 years to be precise. The last one, Effexor, for over 2 years without medical advice or support.

On the advice of a GP I found a quieter lifestyle in a quieter region, and was unable to find a doctor for 18 months. I could get prescriptions refilled, but no assistance to get off them. And then I got a doctor... Who tried to add 3 more psych medications into the mix. So I reported him to their College for apparently not understanding written and spoken English. I phoned my former GP and got a 4 month taper off prescription. And found a psychiatrist, who assessed me as not requiring that type of medication at this time. He went on to suggest that, as I didn't need it, it acted as a stimulant. He also says that I am very highly functioning ADHD, and this, combined with the hyperstimulation of the psych meds, has made me a bit of a mess for a few years. It may also explain the resting pulse in the high 90s for several years. Last check it was 72. I have a hypothesis that the psych meds were doing whatever they were supposed to do, and the high doses of cannabis I was on (10 grams + per day) were somehow fighting with each other. Each were trying to repair something, which may have been the other med.

I have an analytical background, and when I get interested in a topic I want to know more about it. Prior to 2014 I hadn't really touched cannabis since the late 70s. Talking with the doc about it was hard. My wife wasn't keen at all, but we established targets, and met them. And then kept going to absolutely no medications whatsoever. I learned interesting things, like neurogenesis, and homeostasis, and then CBD. And now I coach fellow veterans on ways to medicate. It brings me joy to see other people's lightbulbs go on. I give them direction and confidence. And I learned a lot from many of the people in this (and the other) forum.

Short story is that I have been on pain medications since 1985, after a bad fall off a large truck during an Army ex. And then a dislocated shoulder in a silly sailing incident. And two mangled knees after a silly fall on an icy destroyer deck. And some strange long-term GI condition that I've lovingly come to refer to as Mystery Illness, and is now starting to look like Pancreatitis. Which I've discovered I can stop through vaping! Ondansetron, a chemo-grade antinausea medication doesn't touch it, but vaped Chronic Thunder gets me off the bathroom floor.

Over the past 3 years I've dropped 27 prescription medications, all displaced with cannabis. Diabetes meds, arthritis meds, pain meds, psych meds, OTC meds. My doc watches my bloodwork, but the diabetes diagnosis is a suspect false positive due to a bunch of the other meds I was on at the time.

Anyways, if anyone has questions about various ways to medicate to help with different conditions, please do feel free to fire any questions you might have. I belong to a couple of veteran cannabis patient groups, and we are quite knowledgeable about cannabis and how beneficial it can be. There are several thousand RCMP and military vets in Canada who are successfully using cannabis to treat a wide variety of conditions. The costs of medication is covered by the Department of Veterans Affairs. Because it works. If you have any questions about how to get legal in Canada please do ask. The first response is that you'll need some sort of statement of diagnosis from your doc, and from there the process can be quite painless. And, once you have this legal prescription, you can claim the cost of meds on your taxes. Or billed through DVA if your condition was through military service.

This is rambling, I'm prepping to go away for a few days, and I'm distracted. But this is an important topic. Recreational use is nice and all, but medical cannabis has so much potential to displace many of the innocuous bottles in the medicine cabinet.

Very good thread, @momofthegoons

I want to try to be careful here. I am not a crusader against all pharma drugs. Not at all. Matter of fact, a few have pretty much saved my life.

However, I do advocate that patients absolutely NOT just turn this whole subject over to your Dr.'s discretion but rather must accept full responsibility, based on an informed and hopefully educated opinion, for the decision to add/delete a daily pharma drug.

For example, I have had three cardiac events. I take two blood fat meds and one anti-cogulant which definitely saved me from a massive MI this last go around.

On the other hand, I have a lumbar that looks like the road to Damascus these days and have neuropathic pain as a result. I will NOT take Lyrica or Gabapentin baed on my experience with them and my reading about their efficacy versus side effects. Dr's may recommend them all they want, I ain't taking them.

So, I often think we need to be careful about criticizing pharma too broadly or attributing too many miracles to MJ. Pharma has a very important place in modern medicine, is absolutely critical in many cases, and cannot all be blindly substituted for MJ without consequences.

Just my never humble opinion. :nod:
Great point @Baron23 - I can come across as anti-pharma quite easily, but it's much more complex than that. Other things I've learned along the way include, and I wish I could find it quickly, was a study stating that many prescription medications work much better if the patient also has cannabinoids in their system. Warfarin was one example, stating cannabis patients require substantially less warfarin than non-cannabis patients. What this would mean is that if patients doctor doesn't know he's using mmj there's a chance that patient is going to bleed out next time he gets a splinter.

Before I knew what cannabis could do I was a firm believer in the power of pills. Now I'm a firm believer in the power of cannabis as a health supplement, and think of it as a vitamin that has done great things for me. If my story tells anything it should tell that there can be life on less pills. I initially learned from a group of combat troops that what worked for their PTSD symptoms was megadosing on high THC indica. Which got me researching. Anyways, my initial goal was to displace pain and arthritis meds, and I was hugely successful. So there is hope for anyone. If anyone's goal is to displace their current pharma it's highly advised to discuss the plan with a cannabis therapy knowledgeable doctor.

As for the miracles... when I get back from this weekends soiree please remind me to tell you about my neighbours dog...
About 6 years ago after being told that I could no longer take anti inflammatories because they weakened my kidneys. A doctor suggested I go on low doses of opioids to help with the pain I had from long time arthritis. I tried doing that for about a couple months. The inflammatory prescription worked better than the opioids. The low dose I was taking wasn't enough to help with the pain.

I went in to the doctor for a check up and she had me fill out paperwork for long term opioid use. In our state at the time they checked the patient's urine for other drugs or see if they aren't taking their opioids and selling them for money I would assume. When I left her office I was suppose to take a urine test at the lab. I had been using cannabis for many years and knew that it would show up in the testing. I hadn't said anything to this doctor about my cannabis use.

I didn't go in for testing and when I got home I called the doctor's office and told the nurse I wasn't interested in being on opioids long term. It wasn't helping enough and I didn't want to become addicted to them. I would have had to take twice or three times the dose to get any relief. I said that I would be going off the opiod medication. Since the dose was so low I didn't have any problem stopping. I was only given a prescription for two pills a day, not sure what the mg were but it was so low I wasn't getting relief.

I didn't see any end to taking opioids if I took them long term. The cannabis would be my pain medication. It doesn't take all the pain away but makes it easier to cope deal with and sleep.
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I want to try to be careful here. I am not a crusader against all pharma drugs. Not at all. Matter of fact, a few have pretty much saved my life.

I want to be clear that in my original post, I did not mean to imply that anyone should abandon all pharmaceuticals. Many are life saving and it would be fool hardy to think that cannabis would be a replacement. I also do not want anyone to think I am implying that cannabis can 'cure' any particular disease.

That said, it has shown to be effective for many of the ailments pharmaceuticals are often prescribed for. And... there has been significant study done that we can start eyeing cannabis as an alternative to some of the drugs prescribed. :smile:

I didn't see any end to taking opioids if I took them long term.
That was my feeling as well. And while I still occasionally need to take an opiate, those occasions are few and far between. I don't like how I feel on them. And they are a slippery slope to addiction. Having slid down that slope several times now, I have no desire to do so again. I find cannabis usually gives me enough relief (or distraction.... or both) to cope.
I'm very anti pharmaceutical meds....
I will do almost anything (short of dying) to avoid taking them....

I suffer bad with hayfever, to the point where I can't even see to function....
I used to take pharma medication for it, but after I went all hippy a few years ago, I looked for alternatives....

Now I have a spoonfull of local, organic honey in my tea each morning, from a local beekeeper that i know...
And it works brilliantly....
I know its still unproven, but it works for me and I really like honey... and bees now...
Getting my own hive soon....

Now I know this is a world away from the people here with serious issues, and hayfever meds are not comparible to opiates or steroids and such like.....

I'm relatively young and healthy so it's easy for me to say i wont take pharma meds, may be different if I really need them...

But i still believe they are destructive...
And alot of them can be replaced with healthier options...
As Alice Cooper once said... Welcome to my nightmare...

Anyhoo, now I'm at zero. And it works for me. I'm doing other therapies as well. This isn't enough for pain on its own, and other, non-drug therapies are helping with that.

Heck, I recently read an article about a geriatric jaguar in a zoo getting PRP therapy...

It won't work for everyone, but one less med in the system means one less dependency to deal with...
I came across this article (found on a friend's FB page :thumbsup:) regarding medical cannabis patients using less opioids, antidepressants, sleep medications and alcohol and thought it fit here nicely. According to a study published in the Journal of Psychopharmacology, "Upon using medical cannabis, patients in pain and those suffering from other medical conditions reduced their use of opioids, antidepressants, sleep medications, alcohol, and other dangerous substances."

And in another article, "A Canadian company has announced that 40 percent of patients in a study of the effects of medical marijuana were able to quit their use of benzodiazepines within 90 days. After one year, 45 percent had discontinued their use of the powerful drugs."
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Well... since the active ingredient in Advil is Ibuprofen.... that should be noted. And makes me wonder if the same can be said about all NSAIDS.

Well, if you care to have our resident bio science type read this article in full, I believe that the answer is in there.


However, I note that in Table 2 of this study report it says with regard to testing of Ibuprofen, aspirin, sulindac, acetaminophen, ketoprofen, naproxen:

"The potency of ibuprofen as an inhibitor of anandamide metabolism was of the same magnitude as required for inhibition of COX2. Aspirin, sulindac, acetaminophen, ketoprofen and naproxen did not inhibit the anandamide metabolism."​
Big Pharma Wants a Monopoly On One of Weed's Key Medicinal Compounds

Corporate lobbyists in more than 20 states are currently pushing to make sure the pharmaceutical industry has the only legal supply of CBD.
Melissa Mentele,a 40-year old mother of three, worked in healthcare for 20 years until she suffered a catastrophic injury while helping an Alzheimer's patient out of bed, later developing a rare, "devastating" chronic pain condition called RSD/CRPS. After finding that medical cannabis worked wonders for her pain relief without the "dangerous and debilitating" side effects of prescription pills, she helped found New Approach South Dakota, a donor-funded, volunteer-staffed nonprofit that advocates locally for medical cannabis.

A regular attendee at any statewide meeting on the subject, Mentele noticed something seriously awry this legislative session when she arrived at the statehouse for a hearing on a bill that would allow patients with a doctor's recommendation to legally access cannabidiol (CBD), a non-psychoactive medicinal compound found in cannabis.

"Every attempt to pass a medical cannabis law in South Dakota has previously been met with a very heavy law enforcement presence," Mentele tells me.

"Even an extremely limited CBD bill last year, where we had parents of severely ill children in there crying and begging for access, brought out about 40 police officers and our Attorney General's office—all in opposition. So I knew something was up this year when we arrived for the committee meeting and the parking lot wasn't full of cop cars from every county in our state."

Initially, Mentele hoped the powers-that-be had finally educated themselves on the subject and come to their senses. But that wasn't it, exactly.

Read more: Big Pharma's Dirtiest Dealers

Instead, she discovered that three paid lobbyists for GW Pharmaceuticals and its American subsidiary Greenwich BioSciences had came prepared to push for a key amendment.

The original South Dakota Bill SB 95 would have exempted CBD from the state's definition of cannabis, moving it from a Schedule I to a Schedule IV drug, thus clearing the way for CBD products to be legally sold. The GW-backed amendment clarified that these changes would apply only to products with FDA approval.

Not surprisingly, GW Pharmaceuticals has just such a drug in the pipeline. Epidiolex, a "proprietary oral solution of pure plant-derived cannabidiol," has already been given to epileptic children in the US as part of a federal investigative study documented recently in the New England Journal of Medicine. And the company plans to submit Epidiolex "mid-2017" for full FDA approval.
Since no other pharmaceutical company has a CBD drug anywhere close to market, and the wide range of CBD products already available in medical marijuana states lack FDA approval, if the bill had passed with that amendment intact, patients in South Dakota would have been subjected to a virtual CBD monopoly.

"GW wants to be the only CBD product allowed in South Dakota," Mentele says. "That makes me very angry."

More ominously, The Great CBD Battle of South Dakota appears to be but the opening salvo in a nationwide war between GW Pharmaceuticals and traditional medical cannabis providers.


The landmark study published by The New England Journal of Medicine last month showed for the first time that in a clinical trial CBD extracted directly from cannabis plants sharply reduced seizures among children with a rare form of epilepsy.

But parents with children suffering from Dravet's Syndrome and many other serious illnesses have been pushing for access to the "miracle drug" since 2013, when Dr. Sanjay Gupta's Weed documentary debuted on CNN. The much-hyped, hour-long special told the story of Charlotte Figi, a 6-year-old girl who suffered 300 grand mal seizures every week, until non-psychoactive CBD-rich cannabis oil proved 99 percent effective in stopping them.

Immediately after Weed aired, demand for CBD spiked, with hundreds of families literally uprooting their lives and moving to Colorado to legally access the herbal treatment. But that seeming "overnight" sensation was actually many decades in the making.

In the mid-1960s, a team of Israeli scientists first isolated tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), CBD, and other cannabinoids. As the part of the plant that gets you high, THC naturally garnered the bulk of attention, while CBD languished in relative obscurity, including among US government-backed researchers tasked with demonstrating marijuana's harms (never benefits!), and pot aficionados looking to get lit.

It took Dr. Geoffrey Guy, a British pharmaceutical researcher and serial entrepreneur, to fully recognize the compound's unique potential. Not only did CBD exhibit promising therapeutic benefits in early lab tests, but its lack of a high offered a foot in the door with skeptical lawmakers.

CBD languished in relative obscurity, including among US government-backed researchers

By 1998, as founder and chairman of GW Pharmaceuticals, Guy was growing thousands of cannabis plants—with full approval from the British government—in a series of heavily secured glass houses at an undisclosed location in Southern England.

"He got the go-ahead by convincing the British Home Office that CBD could negate the psychoactivity of THC, and that cannabinoids could be ingested by means other than smoking," Fred Gardner, publisher of O'Shaughnessy's , a long-running journal covering the latest advances in cannabis medicine, tells me.

At the time of GW's founding almost all marijuana available on the black market offered only minuscule amounts of CBD, largely because the compound effectively diminishes the prized psychoactive effects of THC, which led underground growers to unwittingly breed it out of the cannabis gene pool.

That is, at least until 2010, when Gardner helped form Project CBD, and started working with medical cannabis cultivators, testing laboratories and dispensaries to identify and disseminate remaining heirloom varieties with appreciable amounts of CBD.

As CBD supply subsequently grew, so too did remarkable anecdotal reports of its medical efficacy for a wide range of ailments. Charlotte Figi's parents first learned of highly-concentrated CBD oil not from the medical establishment, but by watching Weed Wars, a Discovery Channel series about a cannabis dispensary that was an early adopter of the treatment for pediatric patients.

GW Pharmaceuticals, meanwhile, has spent many years and untold millions of dollars developing Sativex, a fully plant-derived sublingual spray with a 1:1 ratio of THC and CBD that's currently available in sixteen countries, but still hasn't won FDA approval as a prescription drug in the United States. So while The Hemp Business Journal estimates that the US market for CBD is currently a $200 million annual industry, GW has yet to make a sale.

Dr. Guy, however, appears to be playing the long game.


Melissa Mentele first went public with her objections in an exposé published by Leafly, a cannabis media company, which described how South Dakota Attorney General Marty Jackley—"one of the most powerful figures in state politics"—sat silently behind the GW lobbyists during that fateful hearing, presumably in a show of support for the company and the amendment.

Jackley had previously strongly opposed any move toward cannabis legalization, in any form, including a year ago during debate on a CBD bill that Mentele describes as "far more restrictive."

Neither GW Pharmaceuticals nor Marty Jackley responded to my requests for comment. But after the Leafly story posted, GW did issue a written response that read in part:

None of GW's work involves opposing "medical marijuana" or "CBD access." GW's sole focus is on creating a pathway for our medicine, once approved by FDA…Greenwich Biosciences/GW is not creating a monopoly. Rather, we are blazing a trail for any other CBD prescription medications that may follow since these regulations would not be specific to GW.

The statement also points out that GW "is currently providing Epidiolex without cost to over 1,200 patients through compassionate use programs." Fred Gardner of O'Shaunnesey's adds that "GW providing plant extracts to scientists" is what broke the US federal government's "monopoly on cannabinoid research." He speculates that the compound's incredible therapeutic potential may well have remained wholly obscure to this day if not for the company's efforts.

But carefully parsed, the GW statement only denies seeking a monopoly against other "prescription medications" (i.e. FDA-approved drugs like Epidiolex). Meaning under the amendment, South Dakota would still ban myriad CBD products already available in many other states. Even though they cost far lessthan Epidiolex, and are potentially more effective for patients, since in addition to CBD those "full spectrum" cannabis extracts also contain small amounts of THC and other medicinal components of the plant.

"While science has not yet shown the exact role or mechanism for all these various compounds," Dr. Gupta has written, "evidence is mounting that these compounds work better together than in isolation.'"

So really the best argument you can make for Epidiolex is that it's produced to pharmaceutical standards and, if FDA approved, would be federally regulated like any other prescription drug. No small thing if you're planning to give it to a toddler with a severe seizure disorder. But something bigger certainly seems to be at play.


Ultimately, after pressure from local medical cannabis advocates, the GW-backed amendment was scaled back and Senate Bill 95 was passed and signed into law by South Dakota Governor Dennis Daugaard. In a "nobody wins" outcome, according to Mentele, patients in the state will still have to wait for FDA approval of Epidiolex to gain legal access to CBD, but at least the subsequent move of CBD from Schedule I to Schedule IV will not be limited to "FDA-approved drugs"—thus preventing a monopoly.

In the meantime, however, families with desperately ill children are stuck in limbo while waiting for Epidiolex's approval, which could take a year or longer. Even more ominously, as Leafly reported, GW has "contracted with lobbyists in at least 22 states for the 2017 legislative season."

According to Justin Strekal, Political Director of the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws, their efforts may not only deny patients immediate access to CBD, they also threaten to significantly delay the implementation of any kind of cannabis reform.

"As GW and their lobbyists go door-to-door selling lawmakers on the wonders of their proprietary product," Strekal tells me, "it gives those legislators the political out to say 'we did something,' when they really didn't."

Case in point, in Georgia, back in 2014, a CBD access bill backed by many parents of severely ill children "got mired in politics," according to WBS-TV Atlanta, and died in the final hours of that year's legislative session. Soon after, Governor Nathan Deal "announced a plan to pave the way for clinical trials" on CBD in the state to be sponsored by GW Pharmaceuticals.

Local activists believe significant contributions from Big Pharma to Governor Deal and the two lawmakers who chair the Health and Human Services Committee influenced them to kill a bill "that would have granted immunity to parents of kids with severe seizure disorders who brought non-FDA-approved cannabis oil back from states where it's legal."

Three years later, the situation remains so dire that highly conservative Georgia state representative Allen Peake has taken to running an underground CBD distribution ring out of his office. The cannabis products arrive illegally from Colorado (Peake claims no knowledge of how they arrive) and then are distributed to hundreds of pediatric parents across the state.

For Melissa Mentele, meanwhile, the first CBD battle in South Dakota may be a hard-fought draw, but the war is just starting. And she won't be taken by surprise again. "Cannabis patients and caregivers have organized and fought for decades for the government to look at cannabis as a treatment option. Nobody did until hundreds of patients bravely shared their stories," she said.

"So we as a community have done the work for them, and now Big Pharma wants to swoop in and use an unfair monopoly and an inferior product to profit off the backs of catastrophically ill and dying people. It is disgusting."

I can't say it any better than the last line above.....

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