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Grow Talking varieties

Shredder

Dogs like me
So does anyone notice how varietal effects are so diverse? Even with my favorite sativas, they could be sub divided into the type of effects. Such as a clear high that energizes and is motivational vrs a foggy buzz good for pain and giggles but hard to maintain a focus with. And lots of sub sub categories . Anyway thought I'd start a tread to discuss varieties and effects. Maybe talk about why you like or dislike a variety.
 

Baron23

Well-Known Member
So does anyone notice how varietal effects are so diverse? Even with my favorite sativas, they could be sub divided into the type of effects. Such as a clear high that energizes and is motivational vrs a foggy buzz good for pain and giggles but hard to maintain a focus with. And lots of sub sub categories . Anyway thought I'd start a tread to discuss varieties and effects. Maybe talk about why you like or dislike a variety.
Great topic but I am developing the view that even in legal states, a given "named" varietal from one grower can be significantly different than another.

So, I wonder how useful "names" really are.

We have two legal cultivators growing something called Guice. Both are nice, but both are rather different and I prefer one far more than the other.
 

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
Great topic but I am developing the view that even in legal states, a given "named" varietal from one grower can be significantly different than another.

So, I wonder how useful "names" really are.

We have two legal cultivators growing something called Guice. Both are nice, but both are rather different and I prefer one far more than the other.
You got it my friend, these variety names aren't very useful as a decision making factor for purchases.

It's in the name - 'variety'. A given variety often has multiple known phenotypes (and it is not as if we have an exhaustive knowledge of those that exist to begin with). These can vary significantly in chemical profile, appearance and other traits like smell and flavor of course. Some phenotypes within a variety can be tall and have narrow long leaves, others of the same variety can be squat and have serrated broader leaves!

We should remember that some varieties have themselves changed over time from what they were, depending on how breeders and cultivators have maintained them over the generations. I've noticed that many cultivators will remark that seeds of a given variety were much better 'back in the day', and that more recent purchases of the same seeds from the same breeder were unrecognizable, as a result they would no longer recommend these seeds of that variety.

We cannot discount that genetic profiles of living things of the same lineage change both between and within generations (when we consider epigenetics in this picture, even clones will not necessarily stay the same forever after repeated cloning). I apologize, I wish I had a lot more time to elaborate on this topic and explain these claims more fully.

We should also consider that the same cannabis can significantly change in smell, flavor and effects depending on how it has been dried, cured and stored. Even the passage of time changes the same cannabis material from what it was in a way that is perceptible to the user regardless of how it is dried, cured (or not) and stored. I've had flowers that tasted of orange start to taste like chocolate and sage after a year's cure, without a trace of orange left!

I think I first said it elsewhere on another message board, but as I stated above: varieties (or 'strains') are not sufficiently descriptive of the flavor, chemical profile and smell of a given cannabis product to be enough information to make a purchasing decision. A variety gives you a broad, 'ball park' idea of what to expect from a cannabis product. However, multiple products of the same variety could legitimately differ without any foul play being afoot for all of the above reasons and more. I think that the main problem here is that some vendors and many consumers think that the variety is the useful thing to know for the purposes of selecting something that suits their needs.

My advice to all is to consider all cannabis products on a case by case basis:

Smell it, look at it closely, preferably at the macro level wherever possible. It is important to know when a product was harvested, how it was dried and cured/stored and for how long. Above all, get lab test COAs if you can, especially with old material.

Medical users should especially look for test results if at all possible. A patient who is guided to select based on the variety alone is firing blind. Fungal and microbial tests are important and one should be sure to visually look out for mold too - it happens, even sometimes where you'd least expect to see it. It is a messy world out there, even sometimes despite the best of intentions!
 

Baron23

Well-Known Member
You got it my friend, these variety names aren't very useful as a decision making factor for purchases.

It's in the name - 'variety'. A given variety often has multiple known phenotypes (and it is not as if we have an exhaustive knowledge of those that exist to begin with). These can vary significantly in chemical profile, appearance and other traits like smell and flavor of course. Some phenotypes within a variety can be tall and have narrow long leaves, others of the same variety can be squat and have serrated broader leaves!

We should remember that some varieties have themselves changed over time from what they were, depending on how breeders and cultivators have maintained them over the generations. I've noticed that many cultivators will remark that seeds of a given variety were much better 'back in the day', and that more recent purchases of the same seeds from the same breeder were unrecognizable, as a result they would no longer recommend these seeds of that variety.

We cannot discount that genetic profiles of living things of the same lineage change both between and within generations (when we consider epigenetics in this picture, even clones will not necessarily stay the same forever after repeated cloning). I apologize, I wish I had a lot more time to elaborate on this topic and explain these claims more fully.

We should also consider that the same cannabis can significantly change in smell, flavor and effects depending on how it has been dried, cured and stored. Even the passage of time changes the same cannabis material from what it was in a way that is perceptible to the user regardless of how it is dried, cured (or not) and stored. I've had flowers that tasted of orange start to taste like chocolate and sage after a year's cure, without a trace of orange left!

I think I first said it elsewhere on another message board, but as I stated above: varieties (or 'strains') are not sufficiently descriptive of the flavor, chemical profile and smell of a given cannabis product to be enough information to make a purchasing decision. A variety gives you a broad, 'ball park' idea of what to expect from a cannabis product. However, multiple products of the same variety could legitimately differ without any foul play being afoot for all of the above reasons and more. I think that the main problem here is that some vendors and many consumers think that the variety is the useful thing to know for the purposes of selecting something that suits their needs.

My advice to all is to consider all cannabis products on a case by case basis:

Smell it, look at it closely, preferably at the macro level wherever possible. It is important to know when a product was harvested, how it was dried and cured/stored and for how long. Above all, get lab test COAs if you can, especially with old material.

Medical users should especially look for test results if at all possible. A patient who is guided to select based on the variety alone is firing blind. Fungal and microbial tests are important and one should be sure to visually look out for mold too - it happens, even sometimes where you'd least expect to see it. It is a messy world out there, even sometimes despite the best of intentions!
I had a conversation with the lead grower for our of our larger MMJ cultivators and he said that even the way he lights it and feeds it will change both effects as well as more superficial characteristics like color (e.g. he felt that we will never see true purple flower grown indoors...that the really purple stuff is outdoor grown which will not happen in our MMJ program due to regulatory requirements...just too hard to pass testing otherwise).

Cheers
 

Baron23

Well-Known Member
Marijuana Strain Labeling Likely Misleading, Study Says

A recent analysis of popular marijuana strains revealed widespread “genetic inconsistencies” that raise questions about what consumers are really getting at their local dispensaries.

The study, released last week, looked at 122 samples of 30 common cannabis strains, obtained from dispensaries in multiple cities around the United States. It turns out that strain names don’t appear to be reliable indicators of a given product’s actual genetic profile.

Screen-Shot-2018-06-04-at-12.54.47-PM-943x1024.png


That might strike consumers as surprising, especially considering the fact that commercially available cannabis products are often reproduced through cloning and “stable seed strains.” Even so, the researchers found “evidence of genetic variation…indicating the potential for inconsistent products for medical patients and recreational users.”

While the study’s findings might disappoint recreational users who studied up on a strain’s reported effects on sites like Wikileaf, it poses a particular issue for medical marijuana patients who seek out specific strains to treat various health conditions, the researchers noted.

The factors behind the unreliability
The fundamental problem in cannabis strain inconsistency is that marijuana is federally illegal, limiting research and regulatory opportunities, and there’s currently no industry-wide system “to verify strains,” the study authors wrote. Therefore, “suppliers are unable to provide confirmation of strains.”

“Exclusion from protection, due to the Federal status of Cannabis as a Schedule I drug, has created avenues for error and inconsistencies.”

“Without verification systems in place, there is the potential for misidentification and mislabeling of plants, creating names for plants of unknown origin, and even re-naming or re-labeling plants with prominent names for better sale. Cannabis taxonomy is complex, but given the success of microsatellites to determine varieties in other crops, we suggest the using genetic-based approaches to provide identification information for strains in the medical and recreational marketplace.”

Hezekiah Allen, executive director of the California Growers Association, told Marijuana Moment that he agreed with that recommendation.

“We have been calling for an industry wide science-based system for several years,” he said, citing a legislative accomplishment in 2016 that mandated the California Department of Food and Agriculture “establish a process by which licensed cultivators may establish appellations of standards, practices, and varietals applicable to cannabis grown” in the state.

“Having universities finally able to engage in this type of research is one of the most exciting outcomes of legal reform,” Allen said. “This is an important step the multi-year effort to document and catalog the extensive culture of cannabis.”

“We envision a well informed market, where consumers ask questions before making a purchase. How is grown? Where is it grown? What type was grown? The answers to all of these questions hold great promise for humanity.”

In the new study, which was not peer-reviewed, the researchers at the University of Northern Colorado also pointed out that increased cross-breeding on cannabis strains (hybrids) has contributed to genetic inconsistencies.

“The results are clear: strain inconsistency is evident and is not limited to a single source, but rather exists among dispensaries across cities in multiple states.”

It’s not just the strains that showed genetic variation. The study also indicated that the cannabis categories “indica,” “sativa” and “hybrid” may be unreliable.

Screen-Shot-2018-06-04-at-12.52.55-PM-1024x670.png


“If genetic differentiation of the commonly perceived Sativa and Indica types previously existed, it is no longer detectable in the neutral genetic markers [the researchers used],” according to the study. “Extensive hybridization and selection has presumably created a homogenizing effect and erased evidence of potentially divergent historical genotypes.”

The team’s findings are consistent with a 2015 study published in the journal PLOS ONE, which also analyzed the cannabis genetics and determined that “marijuana strain names often do not reflect a meaningful genetic identity.”
 

momofthegoons

Vapor Accessory Addict
Staff member
I can appreciate what both you @Baron23 and @herbivore21 are saying with strains.

However, I think @Shredder was just getting some discussion going among growers about what 'strains,' or varieties, they've enjoyed growing and had success with. I know I'm interested.... especially in what Shredder has grown since he is in my area and experiences the same climate conditions I do. :smile:

So now that we've established that a strain name isn't an accurate label, let's keep this thread about experiences growing and other conversation and articles about strains in the 'What's In a Strain Name?' thread please.

I'm curious what varieties you've been successful with over the last couple years @Shredder. I know I've seen some of the same names from my dispensary and my caregiver. And in menus around town. Along with some crazy ass names lol... But there seems to be some tried and true each 'season' and they change with time. A few years ago it was Kosher Kush and Cherry Pie. Now there's been a lot of the varieties with blue in the name. It seems to go in waves.
 
Last edited:

Shredder

Dogs like me
You got it my friend, these variety names aren't very useful as a decision making factor for purchases.

It's in the name - 'variety'. A given variety often has multiple known phenotypes (and it is not as if we have an exhaustive knowledge of those that exist to begin with). These can vary significantly in chemical profile, appearance and other traits like smell and flavor of course. Some phenotypes within a variety can be tall and have narrow long leaves, others of the same variety can be squat and have serrated broader leaves!

We should remember that some varieties have themselves changed over time from what they were, depending on how breeders and cultivators have maintained them over the generations. I've noticed that many cultivators will remark that seeds of a given variety were much better 'back in the day', and that more recent purchases of the same seeds from the same breeder were unrecognizable, as a result they would no longer recommend these seeds of that variety.

We cannot discount that genetic profiles of living things of the same lineage change both between and within generations (when we consider epigenetics in this picture, even clones will not necessarily stay the same forever after repeated cloning). I apologize, I wish I had a lot more time to elaborate on this topic and explain these claims more fully.

We should also consider that the same cannabis can significantly change in smell, flavor and effects depending on how it has been dried, cured and stored. Even the passage of time changes the same cannabis material from what it was in a way that is perceptible to the user regardless of how it is dried, cured (or not) and stored. I've had flowers that tasted of orange start to taste like chocolate and sage after a year's cure, without a trace of orange left!

I think I first said it elsewhere on another message board, but as I stated above: varieties (or 'strains') are not sufficiently descriptive of the flavor, chemical profile and smell of a given cannabis product to be enough information to make a purchasing decision. A variety gives you a broad, 'ball park' idea of what to expect from a cannabis product. However, multiple products of the same variety could legitimately differ without any foul play being afoot for all of the above reasons and more. I think that the main problem here is that some vendors and many consumers think that the variety is the useful thing to know for the purposes of selecting something that suits their needs.

My advice to all is to consider all cannabis products on a case by case basis:

Smell it, look at it closely, preferably at the macro level wherever possible. It is important to know when a product was harvested, how it was dried and cured/stored and for how long. Above all, get lab test COAs if you can, especially with old material.

Medical users should especially look for test results if at all possible. A patient who is guided to select based on the variety alone is firing blind. Fungal and microbial tests are important and one should be sure to visually look out for mold too - it happens, even sometimes where you'd least expect to see it. It is a messy world out there, even sometimes despite the best of intentions!

I've never seen evidence that a plant changes over time when propagated by cuttings over generations. I've grown super silver haze sense 09, and I'm pretty sure it hasn't or any of the others ive grown. Plants grow different in different conditions and gardens, for sure. If there is evidense I'll change my mind, but even then I don't think plants change much in normal conditions were the DNA is kept unaltered.

I havn't actually popped a seed since 09, lol. I rely on cuttings from trusted gardens. That way I can sample before hand. I don't have anything against seeds or seedlings, it's more the dynamics of my garden. I don't want to deal with a hermi in a scrog. Been there once, and that was enough.

I think we're good if we keep in mind one seed could have many different genetic influences. (8? As in grandparents) But reputable breeders can breed a lot of the variances out. But that takes time and effort, something a lot of seed companies skip.

.
I can appreciate what both you @Baron23 and @herbivore21 are saying with strains.

However, I think @Shredder was just getting some discussion going among growers about what 'strains,' or varieties, they've enjoyed growing and had success with. I know I'm interested.... especially in what Shredder has grown since he is in my area and experiences the same climate conditions I do. :smile:

So now that we've established that a strain name isn't an accurate label, let's keep this thread about experiences growing and other conversation and articles about strains in the 'What's In a Strain Name?' thread; please.

I'm curious what varieties you've been successful with over the last couple years @Shredder. I know I've seen some of the same names from my dispensary and my caregiver. And in menus around town. Along with some crazy ass names lol... But there seems to be some tried and true each 'season' and they change with time. A few years ago it was Kosher Kush and Cherry Pie. Now there's been a lot of the varieties with blue in the name. It seems to go in waves.

ATM I have super silver haze, gorilla glue, blue dream, columbian gold, green crack, cannatonic #4, tangerine cookies, and Jesus OG.

For the most part my patients like sativa dominates. When I've grown bubba Kush, chem dawg or the like they buy once maybe twice and then it's back to the satties.

If your growing inside, you can grow most any of the popular varieties, and should do well. Most though, want plants relatively the same size and a flowering time within a few weeks. But that leaves tons of room to experiment.

Yields are another consideration. IME the huge yielding plants like big bud and it's crosses aren't high quality (my opinion if you like them fine) the best yields in my garden currently are super silver haze and blue dream. The worst cannatonic. But yield is not a big consideration for me. Gotta stay within the the law ya know, lol.....
 

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
I had a conversation with the lead grower for our of our larger MMJ cultivators and he said that even the way he lights it and feeds it will change both effects as well as more superficial characteristics like color (e.g. he felt that we will never see true purple flower grown indoors...that the really purple stuff is outdoor grown which will not happen in our MMJ program due to regulatory requirements...just too hard to pass testing otherwise).

Cheers
Greetings my friend. It is interesting that you say this. Whilst I am aware of variations in appearance and effects on the basis of the kind of lighting used for indoor cultivation, I can report that I definitely know of individuals that have cultivated truly purple flowers indoors (not many though)! I wonder if what the gentleman who you have spoken with has observed may indicate that there is something about certain methods of indoor cultivation that prevents purple flowers from appearing? This could explain why it is not so commonly observed. At least one example of indoor purple flowers that I know of used very unconventional lighting methods that I've not heard of being used by others (inefficient unconventional lighting used purely out of necessity AFAIK) - I wonder what role that may have played?

I've never seen evidence that a plant changes over time when propagated by cuttings over generations. I've grown super silver haze sense 09, and I'm pretty sure it hasn't or any of the others ive grown. Plants grow different in different conditions and gardens, for sure. If there is evidense I'll change my mind, but even then I don't think plants change much in normal conditions were the DNA is kept unaltered.
Unfortunately, I don't have time to comment on all of the other responses in this thread just now, but just wanted to pick up on this claim. The expression of an organisms' DNA does not just change as a result of natural reproduction in plants and animals. This can also change during the lifespan of a given plant/animal/other organism. For example, such changes can take place due to epigenetics. Epigenetic changes are frequently caused by environmental and external influences. For example, we often see such influences changing the expression or activation of chromosomes within the DNA of an organism in the various cells of that organism.

I must highlight that whilst I have some formal education in the field, I am not a plant geneticist. I only point out the above to highlight that changes to the expression of DNA in an organism can take place without being caused by sexual reproduction and within the plant's lifespan. As such, even clones with identical DNA sequences are not immune to changes in how their genetic heritage influences the finished product. Some genes may not be activated and hence expressed as a result of environmental/external influences. However, these epigenetic changes do not change the sequence of the DNA, only the way that cells 'read' and the extent to which they fully reproduce that sequence.
 

Disrupt

Former member
Just wanted to chime in on this topic with something that might be of interest.

Long frustrated with poor cannabis genetics, searched for true-breeding strains. There are few, but Hindu Kush from Sensi Seeds might fit the bill. Bought some seeds, but haven't grown them out yet, so can't confirm. These are also regular (not feminizaed) seeds, so should be able to grow a seed run. You might want to include some in your order.

All strains should be true-breeding. If you buy beefsteak tomato seeds, you don't have to worry about growing a plant that produces cherry tomatoes. Because commercially, cannabis is generally grown from clones, there's been little incentive to develop stable strains. Even if you buy seeds for a strain that you like, the plants they produce can be very different from one another.
 

Shredder

Dogs like me
Greetings my friend. It is interesting that you say this. Whilst I am aware of variations in appearance and effects on the basis of the kind of lighting used for indoor cultivation, I can report that I definitely know of individuals that have cultivated truly purple flowers indoors (not many though)! I wonder if what the gentleman who you have spoken with has observed may indicate that there is something about certain methods of indoor cultivation that prevents purple flowers from appearing? This could explain why it is not so commonly observed. At least one example of indoor purple flowers that I know of used very unconventional lighting methods that I've not heard of being used by others (inefficient unconventional lighting used purely out of necessity AFAIK) - I wonder what role that may have played?


Unfortunately, I don't have time to comment on all of the other responses in this thread just now, but just wanted to pick up on this claim. The expression of an organisms' DNA does not just change as a result of natural reproduction in plants and animals. This can also change during the lifespan of a given plant/animal/other organism. For example, such changes can take place due to epigenetics. Epigenetic changes are frequently caused by environmental and external influences. For example, we often see such influences changing the expression or activation of chromosomes within the DNA of an organism in the various cells of that organism.

I must highlight that whilst I have some formal education in the field, I am not a plant geneticist. I only point out the above to highlight that changes to the expression of DNA in an organism can take place without being caused by sexual reproduction and within the plant's lifespan. As such, even clones with identical DNA sequences are not immune to changes in how their genetic heritage influences the finished product. Some genes may not be activated and hence expressed as a result of environmental/external influences. However, these epigenetic changes do not change the sequence of the DNA, only the way that cells 'read' and the extent to which they fully reproduce that sequence.

One way to bring out colors in flowers grown inside is to lower the temp late in flower, during the senescence period, or end of the life cycle. My room temp is normally from 70degrres F to the lower 80's, but in the last couple weeks if I lower the temp to the 60's colors definitely will be expressed. I've grown bubba Kush with anything from purple colors to deep dark red. Or just the normal green turning to yellow and brown, with a hint of red.

Just wanted to chime in on this topic with something that might be of interest.

Long frustrated with poor cannabis genetics, searched for true-breeding strains. There are few, but Hindu Kush from Sensi Seeds might fit the bill. Bought some seeds, but haven't grown them out yet, so can't confirm. These are also regular (not feminizaed) seeds, so should be able to grow a seed run. You might want to include some in your order.

All strains should be true-breeding. If you buy beefsteak tomato seeds, you don't have to worry about growing a plant that produces cherry tomatoes. Because commercially, cannabis is generally grown from clones, there's been little incentive to develop stable strains. Even if you buy seeds for a strain that you like, the plants they produce can be very different from one another.

The cannabis seed market is in the wild west days. Most anyone can make seeds, a lot by mistake, lol. But if they're not careful, and undesirable traits bred out we can end up with some real crap. It's getting typical to hear of growers popping 10-20 seeds to get one keeper.

My pet peeve is how bad plant structure is now days. Big buds are great, but the stems should be stout enough to support them as well.

It's only slightly better than the old days where I saved seeds from bags I bought and liked, but had zero idea of the characteristics of what I grew. The names weren't bubba Kush, more like mexican, jamacan. Funny to admit now, but I grew out in the "woods" back in the day and I used to bring an old dog eared book with pictures to identify males for culling. I ussualy used dyna grow/bloom from an orchid supply place, and burnt the crap out my plants. Then i seen how much better i did with earth juice at the recommended rates. I do a much better job nowadays, lol.
 

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
@Shredder, it is fascinating to read your observations about the impacts of temps on the color of the final material here! I know that the example I was discussing used lights that emit very little heat compared to many of those more conventionally used, and this was already a very cool environment, definitely temps within the range that you describe as conducive to bringing out those colors.

I am beyond pleased that this place has changed to allow such discussions! Thanks for your contributions man!
 

ClearBlueLou

Well-Known Member
I don’t have the background nor the growing experience to get deeply into this, but there are a few comments I can make in general, knowing that specific cases *always* do as they do.

Disrupt says all strains should breed true, and that’s reasonable; it’s also true, but varieties and strains are NOT the same even if we use them interchangeably. Perhaps it would help to consider rule ONE of of this sort of thing: a HYBRID *never* breeds true. If a hybrid-seed plant produces seed, it WILL NOT “grow true”, it will produce the genetics of the hybrid’s parents. Making a plant “breed true” involves a lot of work in selecting, pairing, reselecting, repairing , back-crossing - lather, rinse, repeat. With enough time and enough conscientious effort, it will stabilize and breed true...as long as no new genetic material enters the game. The classic example of a stable genetic line can be found in the open-pollinated “heirloom” varieties (look, that word), which even so need to bred with others of the variety, or we find ourselves in the case we see now: wondering if the thing x is actually x, or x+, or x-, or x+/-....

The concept of “land races” comes up here: a landrace is a variety that breeds true in an open-pollination space; they typically grow wild, and are as pollinated as nature can provide. This suggests that the individual expressions of the wild population carry the same basic genetics, but this only true to an extent...and here is where we get into genetic *expression*. As we’re working with a sexed plant, we have all the usual factors, but in two sets of chromosomes which are not identical and further have dominance and recessivity matches and mismatches that frustrate the sub-radar grower...and produce variations between plants. Generally, the individuals will be grossly similar. I recall learning something similar about apple trees: an apple tree will produce *a* kind of apple, but the seeds of the apples on that tree will produce pretty much every kind of apple, especially in the aboriginal fruit forests of Kurdistan, where apples originated. Apples today are produced by GRAFTING a bit of the tree the desired apple came onto an apple sapling of another kind. Yes, all of them. Just like cloning your moms.

The entire effort has been hamstrung by prohibition, as we all know, but I completely agree with the observation above that it will take time and effort and S P A C E to work in to determine the phenotypes carried by even a SINGLE seed, which we know nothing about.

I personally lump kushes together, hazes together, chems, etc. as describing a profile of flavor, and intensity and quality of stone. It’s crazy trying to track the confusing names and claims because after 50 years in the business of getting high, I couldn’t describe a haze, and OG, a chem, a cookie *from my experience*. I know I had an eight of super lemon haze and that I really liked it but I couldn’t tell you what makes it a haze from the smoking (yeah, 50 years of smoking whatever was around, most of it commercial mids at best). Because of this, the trend of offering ‘genealogical’ data about what parents from where is terrific. I just can’t trust it.

Still hope to grow, and in the process, learn to tell my Kush from my cookie....

Excellent conversation! Done with my remarks.
 

Disrupt

Former member
Disrupt says all strains should breed true, and that’s reasonable; it’s also true, but varieties and strains are NOT the same even if we use them interchangeably. Perhaps it would help to consider rule ONE of of this sort of thing: a HYBRID *never* breeds true. If a hybrid-seed plant produces seed, it WILL NOT “grow true”, it will produce the genetics of the hybrid’s parents.

True enough - but hybrids should be crosses of true-breeding strains. If that's the case, all of the hybrid seeds (F1) will produce identical (heterozygous) plants expressing the dominant trait(s) of interest. Otherwise, you can still see recessive traits that weren't expressed in either of the parents. While hybrids don't breed true, they do breed predictably. For the trait(s) of interest, half of the offspring (F2) will be hybrids and the other half will true-breeding (homozygous) for one or the other parental trait (one-quarter each). Back-crossing these to the true-breeding parents is the basis for moving desired traits from one genetic background into another, eventually creating new strains. For example, moving sativa flowering traits into a background of indica vegetative traits. If you start with parents that might be heterozygous for your trait(s) of interest, your hybrid F1 plants won't be identical, and you won't know whether a plant expressing the desired trait is homozygous or heterozygous for dominat traits. Multiply that uncertainty by all of the plants' other genes, and you have the current genome-wide unpredictability in most cannabis genetics.
 

ClearBlueLou

Well-Known Member
True enough - but hybrids should be crosses of true-breeding strains. If that's the case, all of the hybrid seeds (F1) will produce identical (heterozygous) plants expressing the dominant trait(s) of interest. Otherwise, you can still see recessive traits that weren't expressed in either of the parents. While hybrids don't breed true, they do breed predictably.
Yes, that’s *exactly* the point
“Disrupt” said:
For the trait(s) of interest, half of the offspring (F2) will be hybrids and the other half will true-breeding (homozygous) for one or the other parental trait (one-quarter each). Back-crossing these to the true-breeding parents is the basis for moving desired traits from one genetic background into another, eventually creating new strains. For example, moving sativa flowering traits into a background of indica vegetative traits. If you start with parents that might be heterozygous for your trait(s) of interest, your hybrid F1 plants won't be identical, and you won't know whether a plant expressing the desired trait is homozygous or heterozygous for dominat traits. Multiply that uncertainty by all of the plants' other genes, and you have the current genome-wide unpredictability in most cannabis genetics.
Thank you - better than my attempt!
 

ataxian

In a BLACK HOLE!
Marijuana Strain Labeling Likely Misleading, Study Says

A recent analysis of popular marijuana strains revealed widespread “genetic inconsistencies” that raise questions about what consumers are really getting at their local dispensaries.

The study, released last week, looked at 122 samples of 30 common cannabis strains, obtained from dispensaries in multiple cities around the United States. It turns out that strain names don’t appear to be reliable indicators of a given product’s actual genetic profile.

Screen-Shot-2018-06-04-at-12.54.47-PM-943x1024.png


That might strike consumers as surprising, especially considering the fact that commercially available cannabis products are often reproduced through cloning and “stable seed strains.” Even so, the researchers found “evidence of genetic variation…indicating the potential for inconsistent products for medical patients and recreational users.”

While the study’s findings might disappoint recreational users who studied up on a strain’s reported effects on sites like Wikileaf, it poses a particular issue for medical marijuana patients who seek out specific strains to treat various health conditions, the researchers noted.

The factors behind the unreliability
The fundamental problem in cannabis strain inconsistency is that marijuana is federally illegal, limiting research and regulatory opportunities, and there’s currently no industry-wide system “to verify strains,” the study authors wrote. Therefore, “suppliers are unable to provide confirmation of strains.”

“Exclusion from protection, due to the Federal status of Cannabis as a Schedule I drug, has created avenues for error and inconsistencies.”

“Without verification systems in place, there is the potential for misidentification and mislabeling of plants, creating names for plants of unknown origin, and even re-naming or re-labeling plants with prominent names for better sale. Cannabis taxonomy is complex, but given the success of microsatellites to determine varieties in other crops, we suggest the using genetic-based approaches to provide identification information for strains in the medical and recreational marketplace.”

Hezekiah Allen, executive director of the California Growers Association, told Marijuana Moment that he agreed with that recommendation.

“We have been calling for an industry wide science-based system for several years,” he said, citing a legislative accomplishment in 2016 that mandated the California Department of Food and Agriculture “establish a process by which licensed cultivators may establish appellations of standards, practices, and varietals applicable to cannabis grown” in the state.

“Having universities finally able to engage in this type of research is one of the most exciting outcomes of legal reform,” Allen said. “This is an important step the multi-year effort to document and catalog the extensive culture of cannabis.”

“We envision a well informed market, where consumers ask questions before making a purchase. How is grown? Where is it grown? What type was grown? The answers to all of these questions hold great promise for humanity.”

In the new study, which was not peer-reviewed, the researchers at the University of Northern Colorado also pointed out that increased cross-breeding on cannabis strains (hybrids) has contributed to genetic inconsistencies.

“The results are clear: strain inconsistency is evident and is not limited to a single source, but rather exists among dispensaries across cities in multiple states.”

It’s not just the strains that showed genetic variation. The study also indicated that the cannabis categories “indica,” “sativa” and “hybrid” may be unreliable.

Screen-Shot-2018-06-04-at-12.52.55-PM-1024x670.png


“If genetic differentiation of the commonly perceived Sativa and Indica types previously existed, it is no longer detectable in the neutral genetic markers [the researchers used],” according to the study. “Extensive hybridization and selection has presumably created a homogenizing effect and erased evidence of potentially divergent historical genotypes.”

The team’s findings are consistent with a 2015 study published in the journal PLOS ONE, which also analyzed the cannabis genetics and determined that “marijuana strain names often do not reflect a meaningful genetic identity.”
The chart U posted is really well done!
@Baron23 U nailed it!
HINDU KUSH outdoor central coast near da vineyards!
My face is melting!
 

LesPlenty

Well-Known Member
I grew white rhino from 1999 to late last year, the plants looked the same and medicated me the same for all that time (mumma was replaced about 4 times over that period with her own clones) I now have 3 crops in of this new to me Incredible Bulk, I have found it to not be as cold tolerant as the old White Rhino and the plants seem much larger with bigger gaps between nodes, stretchy looking compared. The new stuff is nicer tasting (to me) but that is really subjective as I gave up combustion about the time I swapped to the Incredible Bulk Mumma.:thumbsup:
I have a few seeds that came as freebies with my Incredible Bulk order;
DPS-ULT-FX...The Ultimate
Big Bomb
DUT-DTD-FX...Dutch Delight
HVY-DRM-FX...Dream Machine
VIS-BIG-FX...Big Bud
and the one I am growing;
DRK-INC-FX Incredible Bulk
Anyone have any idea about these other varieties and which one should I do a separately?

Edit; Doesn't matter, now a lucky dip as I just dropped the seed container and now they are all mixed, ffs:disgust:
 

ataxian

In a BLACK HOLE!
I grew white rhino from 1999 to late last year, the plants looked the same and medicated me the same for all that time (mumma was replaced about 4 times over that period with her own clones) I now have 3 crops in of this new to me Incredible Bulk, I have found it to not be as cold tolerant as the old White Rhino and the plants seem much larger with bigger gaps between nodes, stretchy looking compared. The new stuff is nicer tasting (to me) but that is really subjective as I gave up combustion about the time I swapped to the Incredible Bulk Mumma.:thumbsup:
I have a few seeds that came as freebies with my Incredible Bulk order;
DPS-ULT-FX...The Ultimate
Big Bomb
DUT-DTD-FX...Dutch Delight
HVY-DRM-FX...Dream Machine
VIS-BIG-FX...Big Bud
and the one I am growing;
DRK-INC-FX Incredible Bulk
Anyone have any idea about these other varieties and which one should I do a separately?

Edit; Doesn't matter, now a lucky dip as I just dropped the seed container and now they are all mixed, ffs:disgust:
When growing in HAWAII it was common!
MAUI WOWIE x AFHANI 79? (GDP kine?) no seed’s!
GSC if U grow it right!
 

LesPlenty

Well-Known Member

Baron23

Well-Known Member

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