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AHA - Ask Herbivore Anything

Discussion in 'Lock Down' started by herbivore21, Mar 18, 2017.

  1. herbivore21

    herbivore21 The Asylum's Scientist and Safety Advisor

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    Greetings all.

    I am Herbivore21. Some of you will know of me already, I've had a wonderful time getting to know this community over the years. For those who do not know me, my expertise lies in the sciences, extraction, engineering and technical considerations. The powers that be in this place kindly offered me the opportunity to be a curator of sorts for this site, to help guide users through the complicated and often confusing world of concentrates. I am a professional research scientist and hope to bring my experience to the table to help you guys however possible in relation to my focal topics. I will place reciprocal links to the various parts of the Asylum where I offer assistance as they go live :D

    As you may have seen, I assist/curate in the following sections - If you have questions that would better suit one of these sections, please post there instead:

    The Extraction Labs - For all of your DIY Extraction discussion needs.

    The Research Labs - Materials Safety

    The Research Labs - Vaporizer Safety

    A lot of the questions that I have received over the years do not necessarily relate to the above specified threads. For this reason, this is a thread where you can ask me for any assistance that may not neatly fit in the other threads above. Example topics may include concentrate storage questions, enail questions etc.

    I know that this thread is called 'Ask Herbivore Anything', but some questions are off limits:

    * Any questions relating to doing something illegal in your jurisdiction are not welcome here. Please know and do not break local laws. Do not ask me to provide you with information that you intend to use to break the law. It is your duty to know and stay on the right side of local regulations and I cannot provide legal advice, nor am I qualified to.

    * I am not a medical doctor. Please do not consult me instead of a medical doctor. :)

    * I am not willing to divulge personal details about myself or others here, in accordance with Vapor Asylum policy. Please do not ask any such questions.


    I look forward to assisting in any way possible :D

    Cheers,

    Herbivore
     
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  2. herbivore21

    herbivore21 The Asylum's Scientist and Safety Advisor

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    I have copied and pasted this response from the 'Navigating the Asylum' guide thread that Mom made so that we can discuss the nail question.

    Thanks for the kind words first of all my friend, I am honored to have yours as the first question to address in this thread!

    Rosin is super CIVILIZED isn't it? :D You're already no doubt noticing that rosin tends to taste much nicer than solvent extracts. Asking about which nail to use is a great idea to give you the opportunity to experience this flavor even more :D

    For your needs, because glass, quartz, sapphire and anything that can be broken easily is not appropriate as we know. I understand that you tend to use a blowtorch rather than an e-nail controller and I don't know whether an e-nail will work for your needs (this is the electronic coil heated nail type of setup you've probably seen a lot of pictures of by now). In either case, for your purposes I recommend the D-nail SiC Halo.

    The SiC Halo is made of Silicone Carbide, an aerospace ceramic which is renowned for its durability, hardness, beneficial thermal capabilities and remarkably quick and tasty vaporization of essential oils ;)

    It is the best torch nail that money can buy IMO, and the most indestructable of the next generation nails. You can blowtorch it until your torch runs out of gas without damaging or oxidizing it, titanium would have changed multiple shades of oxidated color by this time! Quartz would be fogged and devitrified beyond recognition if you did the same! Sapphire would fall to pieces from thermal shock lol

    The only other SiC nails out there are the Liger with SiC insert (this is a finnicky setup to assemble and disassemble so disabilities relating to motor skills can rule this one out) and for torch use, you need to torch a very large titanium bucket to heat the SiC insert sitting inside of it. This will oxidize the anodized finish that the Liger's come with. The D-nail SiC halo allows you to directly torch a silicone carbide nail head in the traditional way and so you will have the nail up to temperature more quickly with less torching.

    If you have any more questions, please do ask brother :) I'll outline the components you will need to buy from d-nail:

    Website to order (this page lets you bundle the other items required):

    http://www.d-nail.com/nails/sic/d-nail-sic-halo

    * SiC Halo dish - $80
    * Slim Series nail base (can be bundled with SiC Halo for $40)
    * D-nail universal carb cap with Forked dabber (can be bundled with SiC Halo for $60)
    Total - $180
     
  3. lazylathe

    lazylathe reaching maximum velocity...

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    Calling @herbivore21 :whipit:

    Question and Tech time please!!

    I was browsing the "Dabs and Slabs" thread and saw your post of some of the most amazing QWISO shatter!!:worship2::yikes:
    The attached picture is what i am referencing!:headbang:

    Any tips and tricks would be greatly appreciated!
    The last time i made this is turned out very gooey, kind of like ISO reclaim...:argh::shit::rip:
     

    Attached Files:

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  4. herbivore21

    herbivore21 The Asylum's Scientist and Safety Advisor

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    Oh man, that one takes me back! I am not sure if you used to be around our old haunt when I used to process with solvents and originally shared?

    Either way, this is a great question and one that I will include in the Extraction Labs too. The secret to top quality QWISO is very, very, very short washes. ISO wastes absolutely no time stripping the resin out of those headies and it'll happily collect whatever else it comes into contact with even a few extra seconds!

    As such, you need to be skilled and prepared at getting all of the iso out of your material after the wash - this must be done incredibly quickly or you risk too much contact with the solvent and end up with lesser meds.

    The reason that most people can only get awful black goop from QWISO tek is because they're doing washes that are often 3-6 x longer than they should ever be.

    ISO should never exceed 20 seconds or so of contact with your starting flowers. Less for trim. Yes, this obviously means that a great many guides out there give instructions for washes that are too long - including Skunk Pharm IIRC.

    If you wanna be sure of getting that shatter consistency, winterizing with ethanol is a very reliable way :D Otherwise, extracting in with more advanced dewaxing methods could be achieved.

    I will highlight that I do not recommend that anybody processes with solvents these days, that shatter may look wonderful but there is a reason I changed to solventless concentrates - they just taste and feel better :aaaaa:

    Thank you for being the first questioner in this thread after our bro @ataxian too my friend - glad to have you on board :biggrin: :science:
     
  5. ddave

    ddave Well-Known Member Accessory Maker

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    Hey Friend @herbivore21 , got time for a friday-type question? One that has perplexed many throughout the generations?

    Why do banks charge you for 'insufficient funds' when you don’t have enough money on your account to pay it?

    Inquiring minds want to know!

    Only playing you because it's Friday, so really expanding on the "ask you anything" theme of this thread.....

    [​IMG]

    Bet nobody at Vape Asylum knew I got a perm, or that I did it to try to hide the giant pole growing out of the top of my head!

    Peace :peace:
     
  6. herbivore21

    herbivore21 The Asylum's Scientist and Safety Advisor

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    lol! It is definitely within the rules brother! Does that mean I have to oblige? Oh shit, what did I get myself into? I'm gonna have to become a banking expert!

    That is one of the great philosophical questions of our time, friend. I am not sure that even I can divine a rational explanation for this practice :dog:
     
  7. ddave

    ddave Well-Known Member Accessory Maker

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    Friend! Your response nailed it! :thumbsup:

    Thanks for being a great sport and for the Friday laugh!

    Oh, now a very serious matter.... Please tell me there's a Joke Thread here? or that I should start one immediately!

    For if one is not started soon, I fear a story as sad as what follows....

    MOTG: “Are you a Joker, DDave?"

    Absently DDave replied, "I was, once."

    MOTG: "And you gave it up? Ah, that is as sad a tale in three words as any you might have told me. But a life without a joke is like a sea without salt. How do you live?"

    Unconsciously, DDave clenched his fist over his vaporizer. "I live."

    "Another?" MOTG returned. "In two words, a story sadder than the first. Say no more -- with one word you will make me cry.”
     
  8. ataxian

    ataxian Well-Known Member

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    Short washing is key like @herbivore21 say's.
    Ron Reagan (son of the President) watching you tube video's on him.
    What a cool guy!

    kief + E-JUICE (no nic) + ROSIN DABS at 40 watts (single ribbon coil + organic cotton) = MEDICATED beyond the UNIVERSE.
    It's big!
    The UNIVERSE = CIVILIZED
     
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  9. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

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    @herbivore21 - Ok, my friend, I'm game. I was going to PM this question to you, but let's create some content for the board, yeah?

    So, I have an once and quarter of fairly good quality AVB in hand (i.e. its not all dark brown and beat) and I have a half of an once of some very old herb (at least a few years old) that wasn't really outstanding to start with. By now, its probably high in CBN, yeah?

    I would like to do something with this stuff. Not expecting miracles or anything particularly high grade, but I would like to use it.

    While I appreciate your warnings, I have never even considered very volatile solvent processes like BHO. I don't really think I will ever buy a vacuum chamber with heated plate to so I believe that ISO wash probably isn't in my wheel house either.

    On the other hand, I'm not all that into edibles but I kind of think that's where I'm going with this stuff. While not crazy about edibles, they have their place and it would be better than wasting this product.

    I was (and still might) going to make cannabutter/oil out of it and use it to cook something up, but have also been considering ethyl alcohol based tincture.

    Any thoughts or suggestions, particularly with regard to the unvaped but very old herb?
     
  10. herbivore21

    herbivore21 The Asylum's Scientist and Safety Advisor

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    Greetings, old friend! That is an excellent question to ask. One of the most important things that we medical users can do is conserve our material as much as possible. AVB is a very frequently untapped resource.

    Solvent extraction with AVB, especially if you are looking to use this in edibles, is a great idea. Residual solvents are less of a concern for edibles, and much greater quantities of residual ISO, Ethanol and Butane are permissible in food being ingested orally. These are allowed in many consumer products that we buy from the local grocery store.

    There is likely to be some active THC and CBN left in the AVB as you say (less CBN than you'd think however, from my reading of the literature this is a process that takes much greater heat/exposure time than the decarboxylation process of THCA to THC.

    The old herb is likely to have more active THC content than herb usually would, but I would expect very little CBN content in that. It'll still certainly be able to be extracted from in the same instance if you like (although if you have access, consider rosining that old flower instead - you'd be surprised how well that can still dab :D ).

    I recommend initial solvent extraction from the plant material (AVB) for cooking purposes. This will ensure that you don't put decomposition byproducts from inactive plant material into your food, which for some with sensitive stomachs may not be helpful.

    I would suggest using ISO for the initial extraction. Ethanol is very expensive in most places and should not be used unless it is the same price IMO. A short, 10-20 second wash of the AVB (don't go longer, you'll be soaking unwanted shit into your solution) in 99-100% iso followed by filtration with a fast flow filter first (25 micron SS screen is a good start!) and then a fine coffee filter/equivalent. It is important that your ISO gets away from the plant material when you filter as quickly as possible, as this contact time still counts as part of the 'wash'.

    When done, I suggest using an induction cooktop (which can be had very cheaply) and a compatible vessel to boil down most of the alcohol. These cooktops will let you dial in low consistent temps being applied to your purge vessel and allow very quick and easy purging for edible purposes. You must be sure to do all of this processing in a well ventilated space, with explosion/fireproof fans where these are used and no sources of ignition.

    It is important to appreciate that solvent fumes from even safer solvents like ethanol and iso can settle around the outside of the vessel and sink, rather than rising above the vessel like we might expect from steam. This means that keeping the purge setup clear of any surrounding clutter, sources of ignition or hot/flammable items is crucial. Use safe fans as described above to blow any solvent fumes/effluent outside of your home and away from sources of ignition or anywhere that they might settle and pose a risk for inhalation/fire.

    Hopefully this helps you to start with brother. Please do feel free to ask any follow up questions for clarification and thanks for joining us here :biggrin:
     
  11. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, my friend. Yes, I will definitely have some follow up quesitions and if it gets to the point we should take it to a seperate thread so as to not bog down everybody, I'm fine with that also.

    But right now I have to run out for a social evening with some friend.

    By the by, I can indeed get 191 proof Everclear in my area if that's an additional factor. Anyway, got to run, will read more carefully later.

    Oh...and thank YOU...I'm glad to be here! :biggrin:
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
  12. lazylathe

    lazylathe reaching maximum velocity...

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    [QUOTE="herbivore21, post: 2229, member: 28"(although if you have access, consider rosining that old flower instead - you'd be surprised how well that can still dab :D ).[/QUOTE]

    So i can press my ABV using my hair straightener and still get rosin from it?
    Hmmm.... I have a huge jar of ABV...

    After that process is there any further beneficial use to the pressed ABV?
    Still active enough for edibles maybe?
     
  13. herbivore21

    herbivore21 The Asylum's Scientist and Safety Advisor

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    No problems man, hope you had a great evening!

    Unfortunately, I've never been able to get anything worthwhile out of AVB no matter what temp I press it at. It just doesn't seem to squish so well.
     
  14. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

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    HI @herbivore21 - hope you are well. After having to run out the other night, the next day my GF dragged me on a three hour drive to Williamsburg, VA to go to an exceedingly small museum on the campus of William and Mary College to see some Botticelli paintings. Supposedly per news reports, there were two Botticelli's, both "isolated Venus" paintings that have never been out of Italy. In reality, they had more than a dozen paintings including frescoes on old cement architectural panels. In addition, they had a display of his mentor, Lippi, as examples of prior work and some work from later painters who followed in Botticelli's path. There was quite a bit of info on Girolamo Savonarola, the tight ass Dominican who prompted the Bonfire of the Vanities and is responsible for much of the destruction of Botticelli and other's earlier work leaving only the later approved Christian themed art. Was very, very interesting but not sure it was worth six hours of driving (after which time my lumbar becomes a hot nuclear waste zone LOL).

    Ok, so I pasted your reply below with some inline questions/comments. Hope that works for you, my friend:

    So, it seems you agree with me that some sort of edible treatment makes the best sense. But here is my question, I see where you seem to indicate that ISO in edible form can be tolerated in much larger quantities than if vaped. That surprised me. How much can be tolerated, please. This goes to how far I have to reduce the ISO to a tincure. I mean, is 1 ml per day of ISO as an edible tolerable? 10 ml per day? What range am I looking for?

    Also, I can still get 191 proof Everclear in my area for about $17 per bottle. Not really expensive. Why would this not be a better approach than ISO insofar as there are no toxicity issues with Ethyl?

    I assume from my brief readings that Ethyl needs longer exposure to the herb than ISO, is that why perhaps you lean that way?

    If I do go with Ethyl rather than ISO, what would be your recommended number and duration of washes.....or do you think I should just bag Ethyl and go for ISO extraction?


    Yes, I think there is definitely a good deal of useful cannabinoids left in my AVB.

    For the CBN, I was thinking more of the 1/2 oz of old herb.....like 4-5 years old. Not exposed to light or excessive heat, but quite old. I should think that this would have some significant sedative effects from THC to CBN conversion after these years as my imperfect understanding is that you will get some conversion to CBN merely from elapsed time alone.



    "ensure that you don't put decomposition byproducts from inactive plant material into your food". May I assume that you are referring to using solvent extraction vice just making firecrackers and milk shakes from AVB? Yeah, I'm with you on that although its really never upset my stomach, I believe a good tincure will be more versitile (in a hot drink, in baked goods, or maybe in three fingers of good Scotch! haha).

    Yep, an induction heater can be had easily. With an induction heater, do you still do it as a double boiler, that is container of solvent extract in a larger container of hot water on the induction heater or just use a metal container with the solvent native on the heater? By the by, do they make induction heaters that can spin a magnetic stirrer and, if so, should I get that or is it a bit of lab kit overkill?

    YES to fans and safety!!

    Please forgive all of the yellow text but I sought to make it easy to distinguish yours from my inlines.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2017
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  15. lazylathe

    lazylathe reaching maximum velocity...

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    @Baron23

    Do i need special glasses to read this yellow text? Maybe try RED or BLUE?
    I really cannot read it unless my nose is on my screen...
     
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  16. herbivore21

    herbivore21 The Asylum's Scientist and Safety Advisor

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    Holy shit man! That was quite a day trip, sounds fascinating. What good fortune to have such sophisticated company :biggrin:


    We should clarify that I am talking about trace amounts of iso being more acceptable in food than in inhalables. I am definitely not saying that anybody should drink significant amounts of iso, that is definitely not advisable. I do not recommend drinking of any alcohol, by the by :biggrin:

    https://www.fda.gov/Food/IngredientsPackagingLabeling/FoodAdditivesIngredients/ucm091048.htm

    If you check out the entry for Isopropanol in this list, you'll see that it is permitted in varying quantities in products sold for human consumption (and also obviously for cleaning of machinery, equipment, storage vessels and tools used in processing of foods). The permissable quantity is regulated to varying degrees depending on the product. Most of the relevant products are alcoholic drinks and essential oil extracts manufactured for food purposes :hungry:

    Low amounts of residual iso are still the order of the day, so make sure that you do not mix your food into your extract until you have removed all liquid from the equation. Your final product should look like something you could dab. To test for residuals, it can't hurt to dab a small bit of your final product (DO NOT INHALE THE DAB! Let it vaporize into the air above) to listen for any sizzling which is likely to indicate residual iso.

    Dab on a cheap torch + nail, don't put it in a pen, especially if it has any porous materials, it'll fuck up the taste in the pen til you clean it up if the purge is underdone! Same goes for ethanol extracts.

    Ethanol is no problem if you can find it cheaply. Some cannot depending on where they are, which is why I generally recommend iso. Iso is often cheaper than alcohol due to greater taxes on drinking alcohol than industrial solvents in many places.

    With ethanol, I still do not recommend increasing the wash time by more than double what I said for iso.

    What I was saying here is that the extent to which THC converts to CBN at room temp, even over that many years is not at all fast, and you might be surprised to see just how little CBN will actually be there. In fact, there will still be plenty of THCA in my understanding of the literature that I have read.


    It is more that there is that if you are using extracts, obviously you are only looking to use the active content in your AVB in your food (most probably to preserve the original taste of your food as much as possible?). If you wash too long, you're going to get extra stuff out of your AVB and flower that doesn't contribute to psychoactivity in your food, and will be increasingly likely to alter the taste of the food. Also the considerations about sensitive stomachs apply. If the food is subsequently cooked after you add your extract, you stand a good chance of overcooking at least some inactive plant materials which will add more cooked AVB/bud taste to your food.

    You can do a double boiler, but remember, induction cooktops can in some cases maintain incredibly stable temps directly at the surface of your cooking vessel, temps below the boiling point of water!

    I have not yet found an induction heater that can spin a magnetic stirrer but if you find one, you make sure to holler at me! That is absolutely not lab overkill, it will greatly increase the efficiency of the purge :science:

    Hopefully this helps with most of those questions - if not I've always got time for you, my friend!
     
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  17. ataxian

    ataxian Well-Known Member

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    All us kids on the NORTH SHORE we had waves, chicks, cannabis with no seeds however we never worked?
    Honey OIL from INDIA and JOINTS from our surroundings ($ wasn't a factor). My wife is very incredible I know how to make SHATTER however it's so cheap now? She made stop production. Now I have to have it dropped off? Glad it's cheap.
    At least it was free!



    NORTH SHORE MUSIC!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2017
  18. momofthegoons

    momofthegoons Vapor Accessory Addict Staff Member

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    I'm guessing you are using the xenforo default background. I've changed the text to green. I'd prefer to keep red for myself thank you... :whipit:

    @Baron23 could you please use green or another color in the future? :wink:
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
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  19. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

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    @herbivore21 - ah, now I understand. With the ISO, you are suggesting that it be pretty dang well purged (to the consistency of a dab) to get sufficient amount of solvent out. I think I'm going to go with the Ethyl and not have to worry about purging so much....make some Green Dragon ala' the recipe that @momofthegoons posted but I will pay particular attention to wash times IAW your instructions.

    25 micron fast filter screen.....something like this, perhaps?

    https://www.amazon.com/Pressing-Screen-Inch-Micron-Grosite/dp/B004F1KBP4

    Edited to add: or perhaps you mean something more like this...4 x 4" steel mesh...I think they are five for $10

    http://www.316twholesale.com/_p/prd1/1473443491/product/25-micron-filter-4"x-4"


    Thank you so much for your help. I think sometime over the next couple of weeks I'm going to try to make some Ethyl tincture and see how it goes.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
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  20. herbivore21

    herbivore21 The Asylum's Scientist and Safety Advisor

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    I actually recommend this with all oils made for cooking purposes. Ethyl alcohol is a known carcinogen - just because people drink it doesn't mean it is safe. I always say don't consume it if you don't need to, especially if you are using cannabis as medicine. Of course, you can decide for yourself what you will put into your body (I just always make sure to remind medical people that ethanol is bad for your health), you still got nothing but respect coming from my direction bro :)

    Remember that in the presence of a source of ignition, too much residual alcohol of any kind can be a fire risk and might burn your food too. These solvents have very low flash points.

    As to your screen ideas for the fast flow part, 25 micron SS mesh or even just a fine household SS sieve (which tbh is not much different necessarily lol) will do the job before you fine filter through a coffee/whatman filter. :)

    I look forward to hearing of your results man! You will find that dosing takes a while to dial in, I have made some out of this world strong edibles in this fashion before :rofl:
     
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